Life without Aguero

[Archy]

Agree with the two posts above.

Was taking a "wait and see" approach with Aguero. The inevitable conclusion now is the the jury has returned its verdict and Aguero is NOT worth the money this season.

I'd prefer to hold Kane for the forthcoming Man City v Spurs game, which itself is telling.

[Ruth_NZ]

...the squad actually isn't very good in the first place.

That's nonsense.

Based on last season, Aguero and KDB would walk into any PL team bar none. Silva is still a top player at age 31/32. Sterling is a very talented youngster. Sagna and Clichy are capable, solid fullbacks. Fernandinho is a very good CM/DM and Yaya can still do a great job. Hart is at the very least a decent GK.

That's 9 players there that are well up to making City serious title contenders. Plus Guardiola has had £160m to spend so far to fill in the gaps. He has no excuses.

[Payet]

Aguero will continue to score, I'm sure. But if he can't bring you a brace once in three gameweeks, that's just not worth 12.8-13.1 price.

Also, I think he's not on pens anymore, since Yaya is fully back in the team.

I'm kinda feeling sorry about Aguero, since he was real joy to watch every gameweek. His talent is remarkable, but this season he's a victim of Guardiola's stupidity. I just can't take it anymore. Every FPL manager that has Aguero in his team suffers imbalance in his FPL team. Aguero's scores were able to compensate it in the previous season but... not anymore.

[blahblah]

...the squad actually isn't very good in the first place.

That's nonsense.

Based on last season, Aguero and KDB would walk into any PL team bar none. Silva is still a top player at age 31/32. Sterling is a very talented youngster. Sagna and Clichy are capable, solid fullbacks. Fernandinho is a very good CM/DM and Yaya can still do a great job. Hart is at the very least a decent GK.

That's 9 players there that are well up to making City serious title contenders. Plus Guardiola has had £160m to spend so far to fill in the gaps. He has no excuses.

And how many Citeh players would get in a starting XI for Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal or Liverpool?

Let alone how well they knit together....

[Payet]

I hope Arsenal will get Kun at some reasonable price on summer (about 50m) and finally make a competitive team for title race.

[Joccki_10]

I hope Arsenal will get Kun at some reasonable price on summer (about 50m) and finally make a competitive team for title race.

I don't see that happen. If it will however, they will be title contenders no. 1 in my opinion.

[gallus]

I would just like to comment on Guardiola's ludicrous post-match interview with the BBC (after Everton 4-0 City).

Pep: "We create enough chances to score a goal and we are not able. And that, for the mind, for the players, it's tough. And that's why we have to keep going, to train."

Interviewer: "Are you more frustrated, then, with not taking chances or defending, with letting 4 goals in?"

Pep: "That is a consequence. When you score goals you are more optimistic and you defend better. We create chances, we cannot score, it was in many, many games that would happen. We don't concede too many chances and we create more than the opponents."

Interviewer: "Is this league different to many others?"

Pep: "No. In all the leagues, the way normally I would like to play is to have more possession and more chances and the opponents few. The only difference is in the boxes we are not strong enough. We are a team with a lot of quality but not with a lot of scorers."

Am I the only one to find this interview utterly bewildering? City not strong enough in the opponents' box? Well, why the hell has Aguero been told to "run more, press more, contribute more" then? He's the best box striker in the PL and one of the best in the world. Today he spent half his time on the left wing (just like Lewandowski did in Guardiola's first season at Bayern) and was deeper than Sterling and De Bruyne for much of the time. If City are not strong enough in the opponents' box it is Guardiola's doing.

And City not strong enough in their own box? Well, sure. But why is that? This is the manager who said Fernandinho "could easily play CB". Who said that Kolarov was one of the best CBs in Europe. Who insisted on buying a young £50m CB who can pass but has always been positionally suspect. Who won't select a stable back 4 and sometimes switches to a back 3 without the team looking as if they have been prepared properly. Who insisted on signing a 33yo GK who is good with his feet (so they say) but hardly makes a save. Who said "I don't coach tackling". Stones gets a lot of the media blame but I think he has been hung out to dry.

For a while I found it amusing that so many thought Pep could do no wrong. I was also delighted about it from a partisan point of view because there is no doubt that City have the tools to win the PL. But now I am beginning to find this bewildering arrogance to be actually offensive because what he says seems to bear so little resemblance to reality. I'm sorry, this Emperor has no clothes.

Anyway, rant over. I just needed to get that off my chest.

This is a direct consecuence of what I already mentioned in the Rounded Keeper - he refuses to start two wingers, so Aguero has to be both a winger and a striker, which he cannot do, and the result is that they effectively play with 6 in the middle and no traditional striker. What happens then is that the fullbacks try to provide pace on the wings, which means that they only have two central defenders to defend against the counter and everyone else clustered around the box. And that is why they concede every time the opponent attacks. The solution is easy - bench Silva and start Sane. But Pep won't do that because he loves his playmakers.

[IceCreamFirm]

For those who aren't getting rid this week, he has 2 or 3 great fixtures after. Are you looking to hold him for those too or still jumping to Kane/Ibra?

[Sutter Kane]

I'm sticking for now. If Kane were to explode again at Citeh then I'd have to switch and get the Englishman. Things change constantly in this game. Kun was posting some terrific numbers earlier in the season under Pep, Citeh are currently struggling though. An Aguero brace against Spurs and he's looking like a prime captain for the Swans game in GW24.

[blahblah]

Things change constantly in this game.

Indeed, I'm kinda hoping his price plummets......

[math!]

...the squad actually isn't very good in the first place.

That's nonsense.

Based on last season, Aguero and KDB would walk into any PL team bar none. Silva is still a top player at age 31/32. Sterling is a very talented youngster. Sagna and Clichy are capable, solid fullbacks. Fernandinho is a very good CM/DM and Yaya can still do a great job. Hart is at the very least a decent GK.

That's 9 players there that are well up to making City serious title contenders. Plus Guardiola has had £160m to spend so far to fill in the gaps. He has no excuses.

And how many Citeh players would get in a starting XI for Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal or Liverpool?

Let alone how well they knit together....

Wouldn't mind KDB back. Aguero was linked with Chelsea for a full year before he moved to City. If we didn't have Costa then he would be handy to have. We haven't seen Gabriel Jesus yet and the way things are going he could be popping up soon.

[blahblah]

KdB for who?

For this hypothetical exercise Costa has to be considered a happy bunny etc....

[baganboy]

If I wildcard, Aguero will be gone now. But I won't, and it seems that the Baines move is of greater priority.
I do not see Aguero in my team for very long, but I do realise that a gameweek is a long time in FPL

[Bob Newhart]

No.

Yes.

With the team Guardiola's had, others could have made a similarly winning team. Not you and not your cat, though.

Well, actually, as indicated in my original post, my cat could've done the job on his own without my help. Certainly one at least as good as the Naked Emperor Guardiola, anyway. That said, I would have been happy to help though.

With C Ronaldo and Bale and Benzema and Modric and Isco and such other wonderful players, are Madrid winning as much now? Yeah, mostly. Heyneckes' brilliant Bayern team similarly won everything.

Indeed. And the football was no worse.

[Bob Newhart]

Aguero will continue to score, I'm sure. But if he can't bring you a brace once in three gameweeks, that's just not worth 12.8-13.1 price. Also, I think he's not on pens anymore, since Yaya is fully back in the team. I'm kinda feeling sorry about Aguero, since he was real joy to watch every gameweek. His talent is remarkable, but this season he's a victim of Guardiola's stupidity. I just can't take it anymore. Every FPL manager that has Aguero in his team suffers imbalance in his FPL team. Aguero's scores were able to compensate it in the previous season but... not anymore.

If it so distresses you, Payet, maybe throw a strop at work, down tools and move to France

Seriously, though, I do concur that Guardiola's arrogance and idiocy has sorely undermined Aguero's relative value. I honestly never thought I'd feel happy with a Sergioless team, but I feel surprisingly comfortable as things stand...

[Ruth_NZ]

Heyneckes' brilliant Bayern team similarly won everything.

Indeed. And the football was no worse.

I have friend that are Bayern season-ticket holders. Their view (and that of most Bayern fans I meet) was that Guardiola made Bayern boring to watch and certainly didn't improve them.

Some of this comes down to what kind of football you like to watch. Personally I don't enjoy all the pass-pass-pass stuff. I like something more direct. And I also enjoy seeing good defending. It's quite the opposite of Guardiola's idea.

[Weisenwolf]

It was obvious with the keeper debacle he didn't know what he was about. Is it any wonder he still doesn't?

[Ruth_NZ]

Just a special note for Finisher1 who loves this kind of information...

Aguero has a great record against Spurs, 10 goals and 2 assists in 10 games. Including his famous GW8 haul in 2014/15. And he has always scored the big majority of his goals at the Etihad.

Not that I'm suggesting getting him in but if I had him I think I'd hold till GW25 and consider captaining him in his next 2 home games at least.

[Weisenwolf]

I plan on keeping him for the moment although Sanchez at home to Burnley is just too inviting for the armband this week. If Aguero does get a result given the next three fixtures this argument may rage on. He's got a couple of choice fixtures after the Derby too.

[baganboy]

Quietly referring to my original post, and highlighting a few specific areas.

For one with no actual stakes involved (except for Aguero, and that too won't be for long), I am rather interested in how this develops.
This is how I see it. Guardiola is a 'philosophy' coach as opposed to a 'results' coach. The result is a by-product of how well the philosophy has been implemented. Quite like a few other similar ones like Michels and Bielsa et al. In this league, Klopp, Mourinho and to an extent, Pochettino are the same. These types, when their method is figured out by other coaches, generally either innovate and figure out a slightly different philosophy to win, or finish off once their method is deconstructed ( is that the right word?). And we would agree that Guardiola changed the way football is seen and thought. Right until Barcelona was gegenpressed out of the PL (edit:CL) by Dortmund, remember? Klopp, another philosophy coach.
As for the arrogance, perhaps language has got something to do with it? The way I have heard, Pep likes to give long talks about the strategy of the game et al... And it is pretty obvious he is struggling with English. Perhaps this is resulting in the insolence? For a normally articulate person in one language, struggling to express one's thought in another language can be very stifling.

I can think of so many 'Then why doesn't he...'s but we all know that real life is not like that, eh?

I tend give him a long leash. I do not support Munich or City, and am not particularly tribal in my support of Arsenal. But yeah, nice-to-the-eye football is a preference, and Pep's Barcelona was a joy to watch.

This thread has really morphed into a discussion for the 'Pep is God, pray to him' vs 'Pep is a poser, burn him' campers.
Perhaps Guardiola fans could be more interested to counter-reply to the comments by Bob and Ruth? (Though I assume they wouldn't now that the form is suffering. They would though once City has strung together a few results).

This is pretty much as far I am bothered about this topic, interested bystander that I am. Cheers

[Turd Ferguson]

Quietly referring to my original post, and highlighting a few specific areas.

Right until Barcelona was gegenpressed out of the PL[/color] (edit:CL) by Dortmund, remember? Klopp, another philosophy coach.

I remember Dortmund under klopp defeating Real Madrid on the back of lewandowskis 4 goals. Bayern had a famous 7-0 aggregate against Barcelona, I think the year that guardiola was away from the game.

Guardiolas last year at Barca they lost in the semis to 10 man Chelsea. I don't think he ever lost to klopp in the CL.

[Bob Newhart]

[Ruth_NZ]

Guardiolas last year at Barca they lost in the semis to 10 man Chelsea.

There's an interesting story about that.

AVB was Chelsea manager until March that season. He was a devoted Guardiola disciple and tried to change the style of play accordingly - it involved a very high defensive line, high press and a lot of passing. The team was still essentially Mourinho's team and it didn't suit them at all. Terry was dropped and told he wasn't good enough (made an example of really). Things came to crisis point when the team were staying in a hotel prior to an away game and watched the Barça-Real Clasico together in the evening. AVB had a talk to the squad beforehand and asked them to watch out for certain tactical aspects of what Guardiola's Barça would do. He was then staggered to find the team cheering for Mourinho's Real (many of them had texted good luck messages to their old manager as it transpired).

AVB completely lost it with the team, he accused them of disloyalty and asked Abramovich to get Drogba and JT (perceived as ringleaders) out of the club. The end result of which was that AVB was sacked a few weeks later.

Di Matteo then allowed the team to go back to the style of play they had developed under Mourinho, they turned around a 3-1 deficit in the CL R16 (AVB's last game) and went on to beat Barça and Bayern (on their own ground) to win the CL. Drogba scored the equaliser in the final and then the winning penalty in what was really the last hurrah of the Mourinho team.

[Oxford NZ]

Guardiolas last year at Barca they lost in the semis to 10 man Chelsea.

There's an interesting story about that.
Terry was dropped and told he wasn't good enough (made an example of really). .

I thought JT was injured and had knee surgery. Interesting story thanks.

[blahblah]

Ah Chelsea's high back line, what a few Threads that was.

[baganboy]

Ah Chelsea's high back line, what a few Threads that was.

Oh yes!

[Resonare]

Going without Aguero is right up there with giving up smoking

[Bolt]

Going without Aguero is right up there with giving up smoking

[BobMem]

Going without Aguero is right up there with giving up smoking

Just needs enough willpower and the knowledge you're better off in the long run going without.

[Stemania]

I think the City criticism is all a bit over the top tbh - sure they've been a bit disappointing recently and got beaten big style last game, but they have just had to do without Aguero for 4 games and then had two very tough trips to Liverpool/Everton. In between that they beat a pretty much full strength West Ham team 5-0 in the cup and are only actually 3 points off Spurs second in the league.

I actually think they've been attacking reasonably well still, just not finishing their chances - they had a number of good chances against Everton before the counter-attack goals killed them. It seems to me that the big problem is simply that the system Pep insists on playing has always been fragile to counterattacks, and for it to work against good teams I think you need good and quick defenders, a decent one-on-one GK and a central midfield who are capable of tracking back if needed - just about the opposite of what they have now. I suppose that's what Pep meant by "poor in both boxes" which I actually think is a fairly good analogy.

They have such key injuries in the back half of the team and the backup players are poor imo. Toure and Zabaleta in CM are going to get trounced by just about any top 6/7/8 team and won't be great helps against the counter, that's a shocking CM partnership in terms of protecting the defence and in terms of agility/workrate. Without Kompany/Fernandinho/Gundogan that back 7 is well below par for the attacking system they're trying to play imo. Bravo especially, who seems pretty hideous from what I've seen. Sure, that's Pep's fault for not doing a better job in the window and for not adjusting his tactics to match the strengths of the players he has available, but he's hardly the first manager (or even the only one in this league) to stick by his own system come what may (Klopp, Mourinho, Allardyce etc could be similarly critisised for example?).

Not a single one of their current available GKs, defenders and 2 CMs would get near, say, the Spurs starting lineup, barring maybe Stones on a good day (who I think has been a bit unfairly critisised) so I'm sortof expecting a fairly comfortable Spurs win this weekend for that reason.

As for Aguero - losing penalties was always going to be a big game changer. The fact City aren't really on it is a big compounder. I think it would be very very difficult for anyone to justify his price right now when compared to the other premium players, who are mostly on pens and whose teams all seem more cohesive units - perhaps as a very short term GW24 SWA captain punt, but not medium term for me. From a fantasy perspective, if City (or any team) aren't playing well or are very inconstant it's not a good idea to pick their players - for expensive players you need consistency and captainability, Aguero included, and neither are there for them right now. If they sort out their defence/CM in the transfer window and get back to playing how they did in the first 6 or so games then suddenly we might all start looking at KDB/Sterling etc again, who all scored and stat-ed very well earlier in the season, but if Kun is not on pens I think he'll struggle to be value whatever happens to be perfectly honest.

On Kun's position, I'm not sure where the left wing thing has crept in from as his average position last game was as central as they come and his pass map (I don't have the touch map unfortunately) appeared to me to show what you'd expect from a striker playing possession football against a counter attacking team - moving around the whole final third to find space and get the ball with the vast majority of passes in the strip between the two penalty boxes. The main problem was that he didn't get as much of the ball as perhaps we're used to, with lots of sideways passes from City, and obviously didn't touch the ball in the box as regularly as we're used to - but that's going to happen against any 3atb good counter-attacking unit. He played far more central than, say, Lukaku, the majority of who's passes came on the right wing in their formation.