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Undervalued midfielders

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The Libero
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Undervalued midfielders

Post by The Libero »

With the 2 big guns up front there's a premium on getting value in midfield especially as undervalued players are likely to rise to their true value as people bring them in.

Which midfielders stand out to you and what would you think would be their 'true' value?

Capoue is 4.6, but as a starting regular who seems to be playing a Lampard-style role for Watford. I'd value him more at 6.0.

Demarai Gray 5.0. Hard to price him. If he does oust Albrighton from the starting line up as many Leicester fans seem to predict, then a 5.5 to 6.0 player.

Downing 5.5. Not sure if he's on the decline but was great value in his last season at West Ham, I'd have put him 6.0.

Bojan 6.0. Seems cheap if he is on penalties. I guess he's priced down due to injury record and tendency to play 60 mins. If he is a regular 90 min player another in the 7.5 bracket for me.

Redmond 6.1, if he stays playing up front surely more like a 7.5 true value?

Lamela 7.1 is a bit low for me, more like 7.5.

Mata 7.5 is probably because of uncertainty over his position under Mourinho. If he is a starter or transfers to a rival club, more like 8.0.

Sigurdsson 7.5. Hasn't scored yet but given his fpl consistency he's an 8.0 for me.

Sterling 8.0. End product can be shaky but he does look to be starting brightly. Potentially could be a premium worth 9.5 or 10.0 if he gets his game right.

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by CarlosTheFinger »

Fabregas and Cazorla at 7.5, if they break into their first-team line ups.

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by blahblah »

Is Fab 7.5?

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by Weisenwolf »

blahblah wrote:Is Fab 7.5?
7.4M actually :D

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by Weisenwolf »

The Libero wrote:With the 2 big guns up front there's a premium on getting value in midfield especially as undervalued players are likely to rise to their true value as people bring them in.

Which midfielders stand out to you and what would you think would be their 'true' value?

Capoue is 4.6, but as a starting regular who seems to be playing a Lampard-style role for Watford. I'd value him more at 6.0.

Demarai Gray 5.0. Hard to price him. If he does oust Albrighton from the starting line up as many Leicester fans seem to predict, then a 5.5 to 6.0 player.

Downing 5.5. Not sure if he's on the decline but was great value in his last season at West Ham, I'd have put him 6.0.

Bojan 6.0. Seems cheap if he is on penalties. I guess he's priced down due to injury record and tendency to play 60 mins. If he is a regular 90 min player another in the 7.5 bracket for me.

Redmond 6.1, if he stays playing up front surely more like a 7.5 true value?

Lamela 7.1 is a bit low for me, more like 7.5.

Mata 7.5 is probably because of uncertainty over his position under Mourinho. If he is a starter or transfers to a rival club, more like 8.0.

Sigurdsson 7.5. Hasn't scored yet but given his fpl consistency he's an 8.0 for me.

Sterling 8.0. End product can be shaky but he does look to be starting brightly. Potentially could be a premium worth 9.5 or 10.0 if he gets his game right.
I have Capoue and Redmond for just those reasons. Siggy is the only other one on my radar and it's not panning out for him so far

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by jimwinn »

Snodgrass - 5.5 m

Seems to be involved in most of Hull's attacks and

Ramirez - 5.5m

Given Boro's upcoming fixtures could score well

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by LamebrainEddy »

None of them stand out to me at this moment really, I'd take Snodgrass if he didnt have such a hard run coming up. Have Redmond as he is OOP but could prove useless if the saints start to dry up goals-wise

Im going 4-3-3 over the next few weeks, banking a transfer and waiting for the must have mids to emerge, and more importantly the third forward. Lukaku/Costa/Negredo and Benteke all making claims with Kane still to get going.

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by The Libero »

CarlosTheFinger wrote:Fabregas and Cazorla at 7.5, if they break into their first-team line ups.
Good shout. Cazorla tends to be on pens and free kicks as well. I guess the doubt with him is whether now he is getting older, if he is going to be managed like Wenger has managed other players like Bergkamp, and will not be a 90 min regular.

With Fabregas I guess he will either get a lot of game time or push for a move.

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by The Libero »

jimwinn wrote: Ramirez - 5.5m

Given Boro's upcoming fixtures could score well
I thought that and seriously considered bringing him in but someone on here said he often got subbed in games last season, and he only played 58 mins last week.

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by Football Hero »

Capoue - He's basically in the same defensive minded role as he was last year isn't he, and he did b*gger all then, so I'm not convinced by him at all. If he scores again in the next 5 gameweeks then I might start to take some notice, but for now I'm just putting these two goals down to a crazy hot streak of fortune. Thank God most players would have benched him and not got those points in GW1 and GW2.

Gray - They've got Musa and others that will nick his game time, I can't see him being regular enough to be considered.

Downing - I prefer Ramirez for sure.

Bojan - He's been around for a couple of seasons now and he's never tied down regular minutes. I don't see that changing now.

Redmond - He's not playing in his natural position of midfield, (where he wasn't even that good as he was rotated in and out of a poor Norwich side in both 2013/14 and 2015/16). As a result, for me he's unproven and could easily fall behind a first choice partnership of Long and Austin. I'm monitoring him as he's currently OOP, but I don't think he's that good a player to be honest, considering he's been relegated twice now and was hardly one of Norwich's stand-out players, else he'd have been starting every week.

Lamela - I fear that Spurs are a team that naturally has to regress this season, (along with Leicester), since two teams will need to decline due to the rise of Chelsea and Man Utd. As a result, I can see all of the Spurs options being over valued. That and Lamela has had three seasons with iffy end-product at best.

Mata - If he stays at Man Utd or goes to Everton then I can't see him being good value. At Man Utd he will be dropped/rotated soon, and at Everton you may as well go for Barkley.

Sigurdsson - I've always thought that he was good value when he was priced 6.0 - 6.5, performing as a solid 7.5 kind of player. Now that his starting price is increased to 7.5, you're probably getting par-value with him and nothing particularly special.

Sterling - He will lose pitch time once Sane is ready to play. I think that Pep has earmarked Sane as Sterling's long term replacement as Sterling has been around a while now and has that Sean Wright-Phillips/Wilfried Zaha feel to him, where's he's quick and zippy, but he chooses the wrong option or wastes counter attacks by dribbling into defenders, losing the ball clumsily; or playing indecisive balls that are neither a shot or a pass but something in-between that invariably does not lead to a goal or assist at the end of it.

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by SuperGrover »

Football Hero wrote:Capoue - He's basically in the same defensive minded role as he was last year isn't he, and he did b*gger all then, so I'm not convinced by him at all. If he scores again in the next 5 gameweeks then I might start to take some notice, but for now I'm just putting these two goals down to a crazy hot streak of fortune. Thank God most players would have benched him and not got those points in GW1 and GW2.
No. Watford played with 4 at the back last year. Capoue was slotted as one of the 2 deep CMs meaning he rarely got forward. This year they are playing with 3 at the back (it's really a 3-1-4-2 although I said 3-5-2 earlier). In this formation, there is only one deep CM (Behrami) and the other mids are pushed up. That should give him much more attacking potential. That can be seen in his final third touches and passes, shots in the box, and shots overall (all up 25% or so). With that said, he's got 2 goals on 3 shots, so it remains to be see how dangerous he will really be. For 4.5 though he seems much better than his competition.

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by Football Hero »

SuperGrover wrote:
Football Hero wrote:Capoue - He's basically in the same defensive minded role as he was last year isn't he, and he did b*gger all then, so I'm not convinced by him at all. If he scores again in the next 5 gameweeks then I might start to take some notice, but for now I'm just putting these two goals down to a crazy hot streak of fortune. Thank God most players would have benched him and not got those points in GW1 and GW2.
No. Watford played with 4 at the back last year. Capoue was slotted as one of the 2 deep CMs meaning he rarely got forward. This year they are playing with 3 at the back (it's really a 3-1-4-2 although I said 3-5-2 earlier). In this formation, there is only one deep CM (Behrami) and the other mids are pushed up. That should give him much more attacking potential. That can be seen in his final third touches and passes, shots in the box, and shots overall (all up 25% or so). With that said, he's got 2 goals on 3 shots, so it remains to be see how dangerous he will really be. For 4.5 though he seems much better than his competition.
Ah, thanks. Then that is one midfielder from that list that I am definitely interested in.

On to the watchlist he goes!

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by SuperGrover »

Football Hero wrote:Redmond - He's not playing in his natural position of midfield, (where he wasn't even that good as he was rotated in and out of a poor Norwich side in both 2013/14 and 2015/16). As a result, for me he's unproven and could easily fall behind a first choice partnership of Long and Austin. I'm monitoring him as he's currently OOP, but I don't think he's that good a player to be honest, considering he's been relegated twice now and was hardly one of Norwich's stand-out players, else he'd have been starting every week.
He also just turned 22 in March. Kind of hard for a 21 year-old to grab consistent starts in the EPL no matte how talented. And the fact he was relegated at in his aged 19 season is pretty irrelevant don't you think? He has a ton of talent and if he develops could be a phenomenal player. They did spend 13.5 MM on him which is not chump change given the way the Saints run things.

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by Football Hero »

SuperGrover wrote:
Football Hero wrote:Redmond - He's not playing in his natural position of midfield, (where he wasn't even that good as he was rotated in and out of a poor Norwich side in both 2013/14 and 2015/16). As a result, for me he's unproven and could easily fall behind a first choice partnership of Long and Austin. I'm monitoring him as he's currently OOP, but I don't think he's that good a player to be honest, considering he's been relegated twice now and was hardly one of Norwich's stand-out players, else he'd have been starting every week.
He also just turned 22 in March. Kind of hard for a 21 year-old to grab consistent starts in the EPL no matte how talented. And the fact he was relegated at in his aged 19 season is pretty irrelevant don't you think? He has a ton of talent and if he develops could be a phenomenal player. They did spend 13.5 MM on him which is not chump change given the way the Saints run things.
£13.5M is not really that much anymore, it's akin to a £7M or £8M signing a few years ago. It's not quite chump change but it's close.

21 years old isn't really young for a footballer either, since most players have been playing football since 7 or 8 years old. It's still the same game that they've always been playing, and true stars still shine at 17 or 18; just look at players like Alli and Martial for instance who aren't amazing but are talented and are showing far more than Redmond has ever shown, despite being younger.

I'm not saying he's a bad player, he's just 'ok' in my opinion. It was a poor Norwich team that he couldn't get into. I'd understand if it was Chelsea's or Arsenal's first team that he was not a regular in, but come on man, it was Norwich, and for two different seasons too.

Further to this, I feel like he's being shoe-horned into a striker role in the hope that it works out, as Long isn't strong enough to be a target man and he needs another striker up with him; and with Austin and Jay Rodriguez's injury records, Southampton need someone to play up there with Long, so they have gone with Redmond. He could work out and I hope he does, but it doesn't change the fact that he's playing in a new position for himself and he is unproven there at the moment. As a result, he could yet find himself ousted for Austin, and drop back into midfield or the bench instead.

If he brings home some decent points at the weekend then he will start showing that he is good value and I hope he does as I have him in my team at the moment, along with Tadic. This weekend is a big weekend for Southampton and their fantasy prospects. A decent win over Sunderland, (who are relegation scrap material once again), means that Southampton's players are likely to offer good value this year. If they struggle to win, draw the game or lose then I think that's a sign that Southampton are starting to regress and could be looking at a bottom half finish this season, meaning that a lot of their players are overpriced. So yeah, it's a crucial game for them.

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by ctibbits »

I've gotta agree with FH on everything he has said barring capoue. Still don't think he is underpriced though. If you had him at 4.5 then great but at 4.6 it doesn't matter what he does because in a 3-4-3 he is on your bench enabling anyway.

One not mentioned that I am keeping a close eye on is Joe Allen. If he can show me the same kind of runs and ability to find space in the stacking third this weekend as he did last then I think he will be my playing fourth MF at a savings of 1-2.5 mill over an alternative. He is on set pieces also so for me is the best out there at 5 mill.

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by SuperGrover »

Football Hero wrote:
SuperGrover wrote:
Football Hero wrote:Redmond - He's not playing in his natural position of midfield, (where he wasn't even that good as he was rotated in and out of a poor Norwich side in both 2013/14 and 2015/16). As a result, for me he's unproven and could easily fall behind a first choice partnership of Long and Austin. I'm monitoring him as he's currently OOP, but I don't think he's that good a player to be honest, considering he's been relegated twice now and was hardly one of Norwich's stand-out players, else he'd have been starting every week.
He also just turned 22 in March. Kind of hard for a 21 year-old to grab consistent starts in the EPL no matte how talented. And the fact he was relegated at in his aged 19 season is pretty irrelevant don't you think? He has a ton of talent and if he develops could be a phenomenal player. They did spend 13.5 MM on him which is not chump change given the way the Saints run things.
£13.5M is not really that much anymore, it's akin to a £7M or £8M signing a few years ago. It's not quite chump change but it's close.

21 years old isn't really young for a footballer either, since most players have been playing football since 7 or 8 years old. It's still the same game that they've always been playing, and true stars still shine at 17 or 18; just look at players like Alli and Martial for instance who aren't amazing but are talented and are showing far more than Redmond has ever shown, despite being younger.

I'm not saying he's a bad player, he's just 'ok' in my opinion. It was a poor Norwich team that he couldn't get into. I'd understand if it was Chelsea's or Arsenal's first team that he was not a regular in, but come on man, it was Norwich, and for two different seasons too.

Further to this, I feel like he's being shoe-horned into a striker role in the hope that it works out, as Long isn't strong enough to be a target man and he needs another striker up with him; and with Austin and Jay Rodriguez's injury records, Southampton need someone to play up there with Long, so they have gone with Redmond. He could work out and I hope he does, but it doesn't change the fact that he's playing in a new position for himself and he is unproven there at the moment. As a result, he could yet find himself ousted for Austin, and drop back into midfield or the bench instead.

If he brings home some decent points at the weekend then he will start showing that he is good value and I hope he does as I have him in my team at the moment, along with Tadic. This weekend is a big weekend for Southampton and their fantasy prospects. A decent win over Sunderland, (who are relegation scrap material once again), means that Southampton's players are likely to offer good value this year. If they struggle to win, draw the game or lose then I think that's a sign that Southampton are starting to regress and could be looking at a bottom half finish this season, meaning that a lot of their players are overpriced. So yeah, it's a crucial game for them.
21 isn't young for a premier league starter? Currently, there 30 players in the premier league 21 or younger. Of those, the following start regularly:

Ward-Prowse
Sterling
Januzaj
Ake
Bellerin
Origi
Shaw
Hojbjerg
Target
Martial
Alli
Gooch

That's 12 and a good many of these players won't play as much as Redmond did last season. Yes, I agree Redmond isn't Alli or Martial, but he's still exceptionally young and to write him off now is silly. I am not saying he's going to be a great player, but you are acting like it won't get any better which is ridiculous considering he is just 22.

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by Football Hero »

SuperGrover wrote:
Football Hero wrote:
SuperGrover wrote:
Football Hero wrote:Redmond - He's not playing in his natural position of midfield, (where he wasn't even that good as he was rotated in and out of a poor Norwich side in both 2013/14 and 2015/16). As a result, for me he's unproven and could easily fall behind a first choice partnership of Long and Austin. I'm monitoring him as he's currently OOP, but I don't think he's that good a player to be honest, considering he's been relegated twice now and was hardly one of Norwich's stand-out players, else he'd have been starting every week.
He also just turned 22 in March. Kind of hard for a 21 year-old to grab consistent starts in the EPL no matte how talented. And the fact he was relegated at in his aged 19 season is pretty irrelevant don't you think? He has a ton of talent and if he develops could be a phenomenal player. They did spend 13.5 MM on him which is not chump change given the way the Saints run things.
£13.5M is not really that much anymore, it's akin to a £7M or £8M signing a few years ago. It's not quite chump change but it's close.

21 years old isn't really young for a footballer either, since most players have been playing football since 7 or 8 years old. It's still the same game that they've always been playing, and true stars still shine at 17 or 18; just look at players like Alli and Martial for instance who aren't amazing but are talented and are showing far more than Redmond has ever shown, despite being younger.

I'm not saying he's a bad player, he's just 'ok' in my opinion. It was a poor Norwich team that he couldn't get into. I'd understand if it was Chelsea's or Arsenal's first team that he was not a regular in, but come on man, it was Norwich, and for two different seasons too.

Further to this, I feel like he's being shoe-horned into a striker role in the hope that it works out, as Long isn't strong enough to be a target man and he needs another striker up with him; and with Austin and Jay Rodriguez's injury records, Southampton need someone to play up there with Long, so they have gone with Redmond. He could work out and I hope he does, but it doesn't change the fact that he's playing in a new position for himself and he is unproven there at the moment. As a result, he could yet find himself ousted for Austin, and drop back into midfield or the bench instead.

If he brings home some decent points at the weekend then he will start showing that he is good value and I hope he does as I have him in my team at the moment, along with Tadic. This weekend is a big weekend for Southampton and their fantasy prospects. A decent win over Sunderland, (who are relegation scrap material once again), means that Southampton's players are likely to offer good value this year. If they struggle to win, draw the game or lose then I think that's a sign that Southampton are starting to regress and could be looking at a bottom half finish this season, meaning that a lot of their players are overpriced. So yeah, it's a crucial game for them.
21 isn't young for a premier league starter? Currently, there 30 players in the premier league 21 or younger. Of those, the following start regularly:

Ward-Prowse
Sterling
Januzaj
Ake
Bellerin
Origi
Shaw
Hojbjerg
Target
Martial
Alli
Gooch

That's 12 and a good many of these players won't play as much as Redmond did last season. Yes, I agree Redmond isn't Alli or Martial, but he's still exceptionally young and to write him off now is silly. I am not saying he's going to be a great player, but you are acting like it won't get any better which is ridiculous considering he is just 22.

I'd rate him as a decent Championship-standard player at the moment, yes. I am open to him improving and changing my mind, (as I've already said), but all I can judge him on is what he has achieved so far, and that is that he wasn't good enough to be a regular starter over two separate seasons in a twice relegated Norwich team.

21 is not 'young' in the world of football, correct. I quote a very recent comment you made about Andre Gray and his tweets, when he was 21:
SuperGrover wrote:If he were a minor when tweeting those comments I might understand. He wasn't close. He was 21, old enough to vote, drink, fight in the military, and be given capital punishment in the States. You don't get a pass at that age. You're an adult and you have to be prepared to suffer the consequences.
So it seems that you don't think that 21 years old is that young either.

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by Canary94 »

Redmond was rotated for tactical reasons rather than him not being good enough. He lacks defensive qualities so in tougher away fixtures Alex Neil preferred more defensive minded players. He was widely regarded as one of our best players, and at 21 he has a lot of potential. Admittedly we were all baffled when he was benched for our 3-0 loss at home to Sunderland. However this was more due to Alex Neil's tactical naivety, rather than a lack of quality.

6.0m for a regular starting attacking mid in the Saints attack is a bargain imo. It's interesting that when Austin has been subbed on, Long has been sacrificed, not Redmond. Puel holds him in high regard.

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by LamebrainEddy »

Football Hero wrote:
21 is not 'young' in the world of football, correct. I quote a very recent comment you made about Andre Gray and his tweets, when he was 21:
SuperGrover wrote:If he were a minor when tweeting those comments I might understand. He wasn't close. He was 21, old enough to vote, drink, fight in the military, and be given capital punishment in the States. You don't get a pass at that age. You're an adult and you have to be prepared to suffer the consequences.
So it seems that you don't think that 21 years old is that young either.
Completely irrelevant, and a bit weird that you went through his post history when having a debate about the quality of a player.

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by Football Hero »

Canary94 wrote:Redmond was rotated for tactical reasons rather than him not being good enough. He lacks defensive qualities so in tougher away fixtures Alex Neil preferred more defensive minded players. He was widely regarded as one of our best players, and at 21 he has a lot of potential. Admittedly we were all baffled when he was benched for our 3-0 loss at home to Sunderland. However this was more due to Alex Neil's tactical naivety, rather than a lack of quality.

6.0m for a regular starting attacking mid in the Saints attack is a bargain imo. It's interesting that when Austin has been subbed on, Long has been sacrificed, not Redmond. Puel holds him in high regard.
If someone is being taken off regularly for 'tactical reasons', then it is because he's not good enough. Good players don't get rotated in and out of their side with any regularity for tactical reasons.

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by Football Hero »

LamebrainEddy wrote:
Football Hero wrote:
21 is not 'young' in the world of football, correct. I quote a very recent comment you made about Andre Gray and his tweets, when he was 21:
SuperGrover wrote:If he were a minor when tweeting those comments I might understand. He wasn't close. He was 21, old enough to vote, drink, fight in the military, and be given capital punishment in the States. You don't get a pass at that age. You're an adult and you have to be prepared to suffer the consequences.
So it seems that you don't think that 21 years old is that young either.
Completely irrelevant, and a bit weird that you went through his post history when having a debate about the quality of a player.
Except it's not really that weird when I've just been naturally reading the other thread where he posted that comment only a few hours before. I haven't gone through his posting history at all, so yeah... not weird. ;-)

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by Bobby Chopps »

But still irrelevant, as Eddy was saying. 21 is a young age for a footballer. A player of that age has a huge amount of development ahead of him, and is not even close to their peak. The fact that a 21-year-old (Gray) is old enough to be held accountable for any offensive comments or tweets they have made is entirely irrelevant to the conversation.

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by Canary94 »

Football Hero wrote:
Canary94 wrote:Redmond was rotated for tactical reasons rather than him not being good enough. He lacks defensive qualities so in tougher away fixtures Alex Neil preferred more defensive minded players. He was widely regarded as one of our best players, and at 21 he has a lot of potential. Admittedly we were all baffled when he was benched for our 3-0 loss at home to Sunderland. However this was more due to Alex Neil's tactical naivety, rather than a lack of quality.

6.0m for a regular starting attacking mid in the Saints attack is a bargain imo. It's interesting that when Austin has been subbed on, Long has been sacrificed, not Redmond. Puel holds him in high regard.
If someone is being taken off regularly for 'tactical reasons', then it is because he's not good enough. Good players don't get rotated in and out of their side with any regularity for tactical reasons.
If you don't think he's good enough then why do you have him? :lol:

Even the top teams drop players to have a more defensive shape. He played the equivalent of 26 games so a decent enough number of minutes imo.

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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by Football Hero »

Bobby Chopps wrote:But still irrelevant, as Eddy was saying. 21 is a young age for a footballer. A player of that age has a huge amount of development ahead of him, and is not even close to their peak. The fact that a 21-year-old (Gray) is old enough to be held accountable for any offensive comments or tweets they have made is entirely irrelevant to the conversation.
At 21, they've been playing football for 13 or 14 years, why do they have a huge amount of development ahead of them? Football isn't that complicated and they should already have all of the basics by then. The amount they learn in their first 50 professional games will be far greater than what they continue to learn in the future.

The idea of ''young players that have already been around for a couple of years needing to learn'' is often just an excuse put out for under-performing players that happen to be young(ish) and supposedly have time on their side. We've seen many examples of players that never learn or get much better, (Zaha, Moses, Downing, Henderson, Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain etc.), and the reality is they were just never good enough; and we've also seen many players that are good enough, also demonstrate that right from the get-go when they were in their teens, (Alli, Dier, Kane, Owen, Fowler, Rooney etc.).

I'm not saying players don't learn and slightly improve throughout their careers until they reach their early 30's and go through a physical decline, but the difference is not that pronounced in most cases, and I don't think people can assume that just because a player is 21, he hasn't reached close to his ceiling in terms of performance.

Football Hero
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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by Football Hero »

Canary94 wrote:
Football Hero wrote:
Canary94 wrote:Redmond was rotated for tactical reasons rather than him not being good enough. He lacks defensive qualities so in tougher away fixtures Alex Neil preferred more defensive minded players. He was widely regarded as one of our best players, and at 21 he has a lot of potential. Admittedly we were all baffled when he was benched for our 3-0 loss at home to Sunderland. However this was more due to Alex Neil's tactical naivety, rather than a lack of quality.

6.0m for a regular starting attacking mid in the Saints attack is a bargain imo. It's interesting that when Austin has been subbed on, Long has been sacrificed, not Redmond. Puel holds him in high regard.
If someone is being taken off regularly for 'tactical reasons', then it is because he's not good enough. Good players don't get rotated in and out of their side with any regularity for tactical reasons.
If you don't think he's good enough then why do you have him? :lol:

Even the top teams drop players to have a more defensive shape. He played the equivalent of 26 games so a decent enough number of minutes imo.
I have him because he's a punt; not because I am super confident that he will deliver. He may be ok value this year, IF Southampton have a strong season. Also he is rising in price thanks to his GW1 score so that was another factor for me bringing him in.

LamebrainEddy
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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by LamebrainEddy »

Football Hero wrote:
Bobby Chopps wrote:But still irrelevant, as Eddy was saying. 21 is a young age for a footballer. A player of that age has a huge amount of development ahead of him, and is not even close to their peak. The fact that a 21-year-old (Gray) is old enough to be held accountable for any offensive comments or tweets they have made is entirely irrelevant to the conversation.
At 21, they've been playing football for 13 or 14 years, why do they have a huge amount of development ahead of them? Football isn't that complicated and they should already have all of the basics by then. The amount they learn in their first 50 professional games will be far greater than what they continue to learn in the future.

The idea of ''young players that have already been around for a couple of years needing to learn'' is often just an excuse put out for under-performing players that happen to be young(ish) and supposedly have time on their side. We've seen many examples of players that never learn or get much better, (Zaha, Moses, Downing, Henderson, Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain etc.), and the reality is they were just never good enough; and we've also seen many players that are good enough, also demonstrate that right from the get-go when they were in their teens, (Alli, Dier, Kane, Owen, Fowler, Rooney etc.).

I'm not saying players don't learn and slightly improve throughout their careers until they reach their early 30's and go through a physical decline, but the difference is not that pronounced in most cases, and I don't think people can assume that just because a player is 21, he hasn't reached close to his ceiling in terms of performance.
In terms of development there is no set age where a player will be at their peak. In a sense the age of a footballer is slightly irrelevant when talking in terms of development. Wayne Rooney debuted at 16 years old, he probably hit puberty way before anyone in his year and therefore his development age and physical peak is earlier than the average person. At the opposite end of the spectrum you can look at someone like Jesse Lingard, 23 years old now and you only have to look at him to know he was a late bloomer. Coaches know this, managers know this, which is why when you say X Y and Z player should be at a certain level by now you better have inside knowledge of his development to be able to say it with any real conviction.

So in my opinion all we can realistically go on where Redmond is concerned is what his stats tell us, what he does on the pitch and that the Manager obviously thinks him good enough to play up front for Southampton.

Football Hero
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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by Football Hero »

LamebrainEddy wrote:
Football Hero wrote:
Bobby Chopps wrote:But still irrelevant, as Eddy was saying. 21 is a young age for a footballer. A player of that age has a huge amount of development ahead of him, and is not even close to their peak. The fact that a 21-year-old (Gray) is old enough to be held accountable for any offensive comments or tweets they have made is entirely irrelevant to the conversation.
At 21, they've been playing football for 13 or 14 years, why do they have a huge amount of development ahead of them? Football isn't that complicated and they should already have all of the basics by then. The amount they learn in their first 50 professional games will be far greater than what they continue to learn in the future.

The idea of ''young players that have already been around for a couple of years needing to learn'' is often just an excuse put out for under-performing players that happen to be young(ish) and supposedly have time on their side. We've seen many examples of players that never learn or get much better, (Zaha, Moses, Downing, Henderson, Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain etc.), and the reality is they were just never good enough; and we've also seen many players that are good enough, also demonstrate that right from the get-go when they were in their teens, (Alli, Dier, Kane, Owen, Fowler, Rooney etc.).

I'm not saying players don't learn and slightly improve throughout their careers until they reach their early 30's and go through a physical decline, but the difference is not that pronounced in most cases, and I don't think people can assume that just because a player is 21, he hasn't reached close to his ceiling in terms of performance.
In terms of development there is no set age where a player will be at their peak. In a sense the age of a footballer is slightly irrelevant when talking in terms of development. Wayne Rooney debuted at 16 years old, he probably hit puberty way before anyone in his year and therefore his development age and physical peak is earlier than the average person. At the opposite end of the spectrum you can look at someone like Jesse Lingard, 23 years old now and you only have to look at him to know he was a late bloomer. Coaches know this, managers know this, which is why when you say X Y and Z player should be at a certain level by now you better have inside knowledge of his development to be able to say it with any real conviction.

So in my opinion all we can realistically go on where Redmond is concerned is what his stats tell us, what he does on the pitch and that the Manager obviously thinks him good enough to play up front for Southampton.
And the fact that two different Norwich managers did not trust him enough as an every-week starter for them over two different relegation campaigns. Ok, one could argue that had they started him all the time, then maybe he could have kept them up, and this was a mistake that they each made and it cost Norwich. I guess it depends on their results in matches where Redmond played 60+ minutes compared to games where he did not.

So far though, his Norwich history far outweighs the few games that he has played at Southampton, and that is why I think the jury is heavily out with him and I am a bit sceptical about how good he is.

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Le Red
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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by Le Red »

Football Hero wrote:So far though, his Norwich history far outweighs the few games that he has played at Southampton, and that is why I think the jury is heavily out with him and I am a bit sceptical about how good he is.
Well, the lack of trust from the managers was one of the reasons I wouldn't touch him with a barge pole at Norwich, but Puel seems to have more trust in him than the Norwich managers.
Maybe he won't be nothing special, but given his price, his position and his team, it seems to me the only thing that may prevent him from being good value is lack of playing time, and so far there's no indication he'll be dropped.
I also have this tendency of being too skeptical about players who didn't score well in the past, but I've been burned many times by this line of thought. Just like a good performer can flop in the next season, an average player can up his game, specially in a different club and under a different manager.
It's still early to say he's undervalued, but he definitely looks so for the time being.
Last edited by Le Red on 24 Aug 2016, 21:46, edited 1 time in total.

Football Hero
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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by Football Hero »

Le Red wrote:
Football Hero wrote:So far though, his Norwich history far outweighs the few games that he has played at Southampton, and that is why I think the jury is heavily out with him and I am a bit sceptical about how good he is.
Well, the lack of trust from the managers was one of the reasons I wouldn't touch him with a barge pole at Norwich, but Koeman seems to have more trust in him than the Norwich managers.
Maybe he won't be nothing special, but given his price, his position and his team, it seems to me the only thing that may prevent him from being good value is lack of playing time, and so far there's no indication he'll be dropped.
I also have this tendency of being too skeptical about players who didn't score well in the past, but I've been burned many times by this line of thought. Just like a good performer can flop in the next season, an average player can up his game, specially in a different club and under a different manager.
It's still early to say he's undervalued, but he definitely looks so for the time being.
I've just read that Southampton are looking to sign Sofiane Boufal from Lille for £17M. He would probably be first choice up front if they get him, meaning rotation of Long, Redmond and Austin with decreased pitch time for them all; or they switch formation and Redmond plays a bit deeper.

Compounder
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Re: Undervalued midfielders

Post by Compounder »

Le Red wrote:
Football Hero wrote:
Well, the lack of trust from the managers was one of the reasons I wouldn't touch him with a barge pole at Norwich, but Koeman seems to have more trust in him than the Norwich managers.
FFS has he gone to Everton already no loyalty anymore in football do I need to replace Barkley now. :lol: :twisted:

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