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John Stones

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DonTanTilla
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John Stones

Post by DonTanTilla »

Sky Sports have announced he's handed in a transfer request.

Will he go the Chelsea, and if so, will he reguarly start do we think? 5.5 mil for a regular chelsea defender looks tasty.

OIEIAO
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Re: John Stones

Post by OIEIAO »

Isn't Everton's resolute policy that he is not for sale?

I think "wait and see" is the answer to both of your queries. John Terry will not be off to the knacker's yard just yet, and remember how (for example) Bony's fantasy prospects shifted dramatically upon moving to Man City.

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Re: John Stones

Post by Notned »

Definitely a case of wait and see. Firstly, because I very much doubt Everton will accept it and be prepared to sell. And secondly, because I would imagine if he did go he would be eased in, something similar to Zouma last season. I think they want him with a view to Stones and Zouma becoming the long term pairing eventually.

5.5m for a Chelsea defender would be cheap, but not so much when you consider you can get nailed options for the same money or less from City, Untied, Arsenal, Liverpool.

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Re: John Stones

Post by Impossible_United »

Notned wrote:Definitely a case of wait and see. Firstly, because I very much doubt Everton will accept it and be prepared to sell. And secondly, because I would imagine if he did go he would be eased in, something similar to Zouma last season. I think they want him with a view to Stones and Zouma becoming the long term pairing eventually.

5.5m for a Chelsea defender would be cheap, but not so much when you consider you can get nailed options for the same money or less from City, Untied, Arsenal, Liverpool.
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Re: John Stones

Post by Mav3rick »

5.5 would be cheap if he was a Chelsea player and if he was guaranteed of starts, neither of which is true.

Even if he did move, it would be arguable that Azpilcueta would be better given security, BPs and his 1 in 3 goal scoring record.

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Re: John Stones

Post by The Username »

Expect the request to rejected tomorrow, doesn't mean he won't go though, no firm decision has been made. Everton likely to play hardball, handing in the transfer request throws an extra few million Evertons way re: not having to pay loyalty bonus's. Barnsley are in for a cut on any deal.

Something to keep an eye on is Yarmeleko to Everton, in the context of the Stones deal. Contrary to media reports the deal, isn't off just yet, fee agreed, player wants to come to the PL, the owner is loathe to sell him to a club not in CL. Everton have pulled out of negotiations because the deal is agreed, the owner now has to decide if he will let him go to a club not in the CL. He may be prepared to hold onto him untill Jan albeit he will have a very unhappy player on his hands. Everton are prepared to give it untill Friday before moving on.

On Stones, he's a good player now, but just that, he's a long way of fulfilling his potential of which he has much, I would be surprised if he started more then 3 games for Chelsea if he goes.

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Re: RE: Re: John Stones

Post by eastcentral1 »

The Username wrote:Expect the request to rejected tomorrow, doesn't mean he won't go though, no firm decision has been made. Everton likely to play hardball, handing in the transfer request throws an extra few million Evertons way re: not having to pay loyalty bonus's. Barnsley are in for a cut on any deal.

Something to keep an eye on is Yarmeleko to Everton, in the context of the Stones deal. Contrary to media reports the deal, isn't off just yet, fee agreed, player wants to come to the PL, the owner is loathe to sell him to a club not in CL. Everton have pulled out of negotiations because the deal is agreed, the owner now has to decide if he will let him go to a club not in the CL. He may be prepared to hold onto him untill Jan albeit he will have a very unhappy player on his hands. Everton are prepared to give it untill Friday before moving on.

On Stones, he's a good player now, but just that, he's a long way of fulfilling his potential of which he has much, I would be surprised if he started more then 3 games for Chelsea if he goes.
Yes, it's the compound effect of lack of quality centre banks x lack of quality English players. Everton are going to do very well out of this indeed.

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Re: John Stones

Post by SuperGrover »

Why would you take Stones at 5.5 when Azpilicueta is just 6 and has absolutely no competition?

BTW, if Everton doesn't sell they are nuts. They are going to sell him long term and I doubt he can do much to inflate his price (if truly 40 MM GBP). They aren't going to qualify for UCL this year and they aren't getting relegated without him, so they might as well get value out of him while it's at its highest.

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Re: John Stones

Post by The Username »

SuperGrover wrote:Why would you take Stones at 5.5 when Azpilicueta is just 6 and has absolutely no competition?

BTW, if Everton doesn't sell they are nuts. They are going to sell him long term and I doubt he can do much to inflate his price (if truly 40 MM GBP). They aren't going to qualify for UCL this year and they aren't getting relegated without him, so they might as well get value out of him while it's at its highest.
There is a belief that price may go up in the year, given if he stays he is likely going to be involved in the Euros and has another year in the PL. Barcalona have also expressed an interest, albeit asked to be kept informed of other clubs interest as part of the Delefou deal. The club also know that Utd and City hold an interest in the player, but have blown much of their load in the transfer window already.

The transfer request does change things slightly though, they now have a potentially unhappy player on there hands.

The other point under consideration, there are many exceptional young players in the team in Barkley, Galloway, Mccarthy and Lukaku. Additionaly there are some really talented players coming up through the youth team, the signal this sends out to those players in terms of ambition and other clubs to cherry pick Everton players is another consideration for the club.
Last edited by The Username on 26 Aug 2015, 23:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: John Stones

Post by OIEIAO »

The Username wrote:
SuperGrover wrote:The other point under consideration, there are many exceptional young players in the team in Barkley, Galloway, Mccarthy and Lukaku. Additionaly there are some really talented players coming up through the youth team, the signal this sends out to those players in terms of ambition and other clubs to cherry pick Everton players is another consideration for the club.
I'm not sure who whether you're saying it makes Everton a good or bad club to be at for the young players.

I support a Championship club and we all know we are a shop window for bigger clubs to pick our best players. We tie players down for 3 years or so but we know that every player has his price and have let good players go at awkward times - and that policy helps get promising young players to sign for us: "play well here and the sky's the limit".

I would argue that the same logic applies to most clubs in the country to some extent, including Everton - they are an established PL club and the numbers involved are bigger and the contracts longer....but if I were 20 years old and on the fringes of the Everton team, the Stones situation would make me think twice about signing a 4 or 5 year contract.

If they feel he's an essential member of the team and this is far too late in the summer transfer window, that's one thing, but if Stones's price is not £35m-40m, what on earth is it?!

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Re: John Stones

Post by Pirlo's Beard »

OIEIAO wrote:if Stones's price is not £35m-40m, what on earth is it?!
It's whatever Chelsea are willing to pay.

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Re: John Stones

Post by The Username »

OIEIAO wrote:
The Username wrote:
SuperGrover wrote:The other point under consideration, there are many exceptional young players in the team in Barkley, Galloway, Mccarthy and Lukaku. Additionaly there are some really talented players coming up through the youth team, the signal this sends out to those players in terms of ambition and other clubs to cherry pick Everton players is another consideration for the club.
I'm not sure who whether you're saying it makes Everton a good or bad club to be at for the young players.

I support a Championship club and we all know we are a shop window for bigger clubs to pick our best players. We tie players down for 3 years or so but we know that every player has his price and have let good players go at awkward times - and that policy helps get promising young players to sign for us: "play well here and the sky's the limit".

I would argue that the same logic applies to most clubs in the country to some extent, including Everton - they are an established PL club and the numbers involved are bigger and the contracts longer....but if I were 20 years old and on the fringes of the Everton team, the Stones situation would make me think twice about signing a 4 or 5 year contract.

If they feel he's an essential member of the team and this is far too late in the summer transfer window, that's one thing, but if Stones's price is not £35m-40m, what on earth is it?!
Not to go of topic to much but in a contempory sense clubs need to be pragmatic i think every club is in that positition to different degrees, in Stones case the transfer request changes things some what in the sense that the player wants to leave. In Evertons context they rarely sell players unless they have stated a desire go: Rooney, Lescott, Arteta and Fellaini all handed in transfer requests. While bids have been made in the past for Jagielka (Arsenal) and Baines (Utd) and because the players didnt put in a transfer request, they were kept. This seems to be the critical line of demarcation in Evertons case.

In terms of young players and signing contracts, i think it works the opposite way as well, players are more likely to sign knowing that they may get a chance and if they excell they could end up with CL football, it help in attracting young players - Stones himself, Galloway - who looks very good and more recently Holgate. There is a really good crop coming through the academy a the moment, Ledson, Dowell, Walsh in particular that may be in the Barkely/Rooney mould and worth keeping an eye on from FPL perspective.

What Stones is worth, is a nebulous thing, certainly Chelsea will have to pay a premuim, as i mentioned the Transfer request throws a few million in the pot in loyalty bonus or may take care of Barnsleys end of any deal. But they will charge for the years ahead and young English, in the knowledge that even if he doesnt go this window City, Utd and Barca may be in better positions to auction of his price next summer, as well as; overall inflation, dearth of decent centre back in the market and increased TV money/Barca lifted transfer embargo (i know they have been asked to be kept informed of interest in Stones). Of course Chelsea will have an awareness of this as well presently.

If he stays or goes i think hes dead as an FPL prospect - everton are awful or rather poorly organsied at the back conversely, while at Chelsea i see him as bit part at this stage in his development.
Last edited by The Username on 26 Aug 2015, 23:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: John Stones

Post by SuperGrover »

Great post Username. Agree with your analysis of Everton.

I should say I am approaching this from a very pragmatic "Moneyball" approach. Everton are going to finish outside the top 4 but above the drop zone. They are going to do so whether they have John Stones or not. From my view (or at least the view of the advice I suggested above), it's better to prepare for the future and try and revamp the roster to build a top 4 challenging club. They were close a few years ago but have fallen back. Better to sell Stones and use the money to buy players who might be part of the next great team.

The problem with this approach is it implies that finishing say 15th won't have any negative impacts. That is unrealistic of course. Staff could get fired and supporters could spend less all impacting the future state of either the club or the individuals currently making the decisions. For example, if I am Rooberto Martinez do I sell Stones now if it makes us 10% better next year if it increases my chances of being sacked by 10% this year? Probably not.

I would be surprised if Stones is worth more next season. As others have pointed out, Everton's defence is terrible and it will be hard for him to shine in such a unit as a CB. If I am Everton, I sell now.

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Re: John Stones

Post by Stemania »

It's also worth adding that if Everton do sell and then as a result finish 5-6 places lower than they would have with Stones, then every one of those places has cost the club 1.2m in prize money at the end of the season. Sell him for 30m and drop 8 places and you've essentially sold him for 20m.

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Re: John Stones

Post by SuperGrover »

Stemania wrote:It's also worth adding that if Everton do sell and then as a result finish 5-6 places lower than they would have with Stones, then every one of those places has cost the club 1.2m in prize money at the end of the season. Sell him for 30m and drop 8 places and you've essentially sold him for 20m.
Very good point and one I didn't consider. Also, maybe a lower place impacts TV appearances the subsequent season?

It's all so complicated people. This is why I had to quit FM or else I would be unemployed and divorced! Too much to consider.

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Carlos Kickaball
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Re: John Stones

Post by Carlos Kickaball »

I heard whenever Gooberman plays FM he is always sacked in his second week after a consortium takeover, every time he plays.

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Re: John Stones

Post by Droughton »

SuperGrover wrote:
Stemania wrote:It's also worth adding that if Everton do sell and then as a result finish 5-6 places lower than they would have with Stones, then every one of those places has cost the club 1.2m in prize money at the end of the season. Sell him for 30m and drop 8 places and you've essentially sold him for 20m.
Very good point and one I didn't consider. Also, maybe a lower place impacts TV appearances the subsequent season?

It's all so complicated people. This is why I had to quit FM or else I would be unemployed and divorced! Too much to consider.
The 1.2m is true and adds up quickly. I'm pretty sure the teams higher up the league receive more TV coverage the following year too

Also John Stones has been eased into a starting CB for Everton for the last 3-4 years, that is a lot of effort to get to this point. Jagielka+Distin had to end one day given Distins age and it ended last season and stones started regularly. He hasn't even had a full season regularly starting and there is massive interest. With Distin gone and Jagielka+Stones being the only real establised centre backs at the club I can't see Stones going anywhere until Everton find replacements. He perfectly fits the way Martinez wants to play and finding another player of that mould is extremely tough, hence Barcelona's interest despite their extensive youth academy and reputation for bringing through possesion friendly defensive players like Pique and Busquets.

I think Everton will sign an established CB AND refuse to let Stones go. If they let him go for less than 40m I think it is a bad deal football and business wise. - I obviously don't know the situation with him in the dressing room which could have an adverse effect... but he seems proffesional.

FPL wise - Not worth having at either club.

Final Note - Just because a player or team aren't good fantasy wise it doesn't mean there bad so please refrain some comments such as... 'Everton are bad at defending' or people who know football will be along to correct you

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Re: John Stones

Post by hancockjr »

Droughton wrote:

Final Note - Just because a player or team aren't good fantasy wise it doesn't mean there bad so please refrain some comments such as... 'Everton are bad at defending' or people who know football will be along to correct you
I obviously don't know football then, as I'd simply be agreeing.

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Re: John Stones

Post by tomo89 »

Stemania wrote:It's also worth adding that if Everton do sell and then as a result finish 5-6 places lower than they would have with Stones, then every one of those places has cost the club 1.2m in prize money at the end of the season. Sell him for 30m and drop 8 places and you've essentially sold him for 20m.
complete hyperbole to suggest stones is worth 15-20 points a season.

take one player out of any team in the league, it wouldn't cost them 6 places in the table.

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Re: John Stones

Post by Stemania »

That's probablly true, though as a Newcastle fan I do have acute memories of us losing what felt like more than that many places in less than half a season after selling Ba one season and Cabaye another.

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Re: John Stones

Post by SuperGrover »

Droughton wrote:'Everton are bad at defending' or people who know football will be along to correct you
Look I am no expert but every Roberto Martinez coached team I've ever seen has been awful in defence. Everton has been as much during his three years there, scoring CS's two seasons ago on the back of save stopping at unsustainable levels. They are quite terrible, especially for a team with such a highly valued back 4.

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Re: John Stones

Post by Carlos Kickaball »

Droughton wrote:so please refrain some comments such as... 'Everton are bad at defending' or people who know football will be along to correct you
Image

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Re: John Stones

Post by The Username »

SuperGrover wrote:
Droughton wrote:'Everton are bad at defending' or people who know football will be along to correct you
Look I am no expert but every Roberto Martinez coached team I've ever seen has been awful in defence. Everton has been as much during his three years there, scoring CS's two seasons ago on the back of save stopping at unsustainable levels. They are quite terrible, especially for a team with such a highly valued back 4.
It is quite amazing, when you look at the regular back four: Jagielka (England International), Stones (Could break the British transfer record for a defender), Baines and Coleman (both Internationals and argueably two of the best full back in the league), that Evertons CS record is awful. Even more so when you consider three of that same back 4 were regularly and consistently up there with the best defenses in the league every season under Moyes. Very good defenders but very badly organised.

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Re: John Stones

Post by liquidfootball2 »

Stones is now best price 5/6 to stay at Everton and best price 11/10 to go according to oddschecker.

Our defensive weakness is solely down to Martinez and his style of playing. A manager who knew how to organize a defence would have an impressive record given the players at his disposal.

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Re: John Stones

Post by hancockjr »

Coleman and Baines are highly rated for their attacking qualities, not as defensive defenders. More pertinently, defending is not a "back four" issue, it also depends on who else is contributing (what are the midfielders and attackers expected to do), how organised they are and even what the emphasis of the team is - e.g Moyes / Pulis " clean sheet at all costs" or a more attacking ( Eddie Howe?) "score more than they do". Martinez is clearly the latter.

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Re: John Stones

Post by moonlightdribbler »

SuperGrover wrote: Look I am no expert but every Roberto Martinez coached team I've ever seen has been awful in defence. Everton has been as much during his three years there, scoring CS's two seasons ago on the back of save stopping at unsustainable levels. They are quite terrible, especially for a team with such a highly valued back 4.
liquidfootball2 wrote: Our defensive weakness is solely down to Martinez and his style of playing. A manager who knew how to organize a defence would have an impressive record given the players at his disposal.

Some people are incredibly tiresome at posting the same old shite cliches. In Martinez's first season at Everton we had the 3rd BEST defence in the league, conceding only 2 more than champions Man City. Martinez achieved this whilst making us a more attacking side, backed up by scoring a record number of goals at home in a PL season. And so good was the balance we broke our record for PL points.

Things didn't work out the following season, not helped by the highest amount of (recorded) individual mistakes I've seen from an Everton team, predominantly at the back. Ever. But to ignore Martinez when things are good, whilst pouncing on him on any available opportunity when things are bad, is just blinkered eff madness.

But don't let the truth/stats get in the way of your agenda/pre-conceived ideas...

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Re: John Stones

Post by liquidfootball2 »

Had all this before, he largely inherited that defence from Moyes and was found out last season as his tactics of spreading the central defenders and passing far too slowly in our own half asked for trouble and was at least partially responsible for the resultant escalation in the error count.

But don't let the truth...etc

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Re: John Stones

Post by moonlightdribbler »

liquidfootball2 wrote:Had all this before, he largely inherited that defence from Moyes and was found out last season as his tactics of spreading the central defenders and passing far too slowly in our own half asked for trouble and was at least partially responsible for the resultant escalation in the error count.

But don't let the truth...etc


Exactly my point, no credit 1st season (Moyes' defence), all his fault the following season, despite it being the same backline.

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Re: John Stones

Post by liquidfootball2 »

Teams worked out how to exploit it by the second season, a higher press forcing errors as we inevitably gave it away in our own half, and with centre backs spread and full backs advanced were completely exposed. If we get the ball forward sooner and speed up the passing it makes it far more difficult.

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Re: John Stones

Post by SuperGrover »

moonlightdribbler wrote:
SuperGrover wrote: Look I am no expert but every Roberto Martinez coached team I've ever seen has been awful in defence. Everton has been as much during his three years there, scoring CS's two seasons ago on the back of save stopping at unsustainable levels. They are quite terrible, especially for a team with such a highly valued back 4.
Some people are incredibly tiresome at posting the same old shite cliches. In Martinez's first season at Everton we had the 3rd BEST defence in the league, conceding only 2 more than champions Man City. Martinez achieved this whilst making us a more attacking side, backed up by scoring a record number of goals at home in a PL season. And so good was the balance we broke our record for PL points.
Did you read my full quote? I clearly indicate that he scored a bunch of CS's with a ridiculous save performance from Howard. It was unsustainable and has shown as much the past two seasons.

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