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The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014 - 15

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gooberman
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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by gooberman »

Stemania wrote:
gooberman wrote:
moonlightdribbler wrote:
nufctoon wrote:Lennon (Coleman)

Will Coleman get awarded that? I can never keep up with what qualifies an assist when a cross goes into the box, but it was a cross that failed to reach it's intended target, and Lennon finished the rebound.
Yet again like last week with Sturridge, another assist awarded which is contrary to the definition of assists in their rules. Coleman crosses, defender blocks it and significantly alters the direction of the ball before Lennon scores. I've lost count of the number of times this has happened this season. It's a disgrace.
I think we should really change our interpretation a bit on the back of these decisions. We've been kindof assuming that any big enough deflection and it's no assist. But the rule actually implies that the size of defection doesn't matter if the ball still reaches it's intended destination. "If an opposing player touches the ball after the final pass before a goal is scored, significantly altering the intended destination of the ball, then no assist is awarded" is the formulation. Presumably they simply decided that Lennon was the intended recipient, but I must admit I can't now remember the goal. It is worth noting though, that last weeks assist is an assist by this new (possibly correct) interpretation, the frustration is that they maybe haven't seemed to stick by this interpretation in the past.

What I do find ridiculous though, is things like the fact that Clyne's assist yesterday counts because he was having a shot - even though it was deflected hugely, went through a crowd of people, under another attackers foot and eventually fell to the goalscorer. Whether the shot was on or off target, wildly ambitious or even foolish is irrelivant; the rule only cares about intention. Whereas, if a player plays a perfect cross into the box and it gets deflected to a player different to it's intended recipient who then scores, then it's no assist. The odd thing then is, an assist is also awarded for a pass that provides an assist, whether or not the pass was intentional, so if there is no deflection intention means nothing. :?

I guess their problem is, it's surely fair to award an assist for a blocked shot in many circumstances, and to an accidental pass leading to a goal, but it's impossible to set a reasonable objective rule without encountering ridiculous uncommon situations like the one above.
It's 100% clear that Lennon was not the intended recipient. He wasn't even in the penalty area when Coleman crossed it into the box. He was aiming for Kone, the defender got to the ball first and blocked it sending the ball in a completely different direction towards Lennon who then scored.

There was a very similar example in the Man City Newcastle game. Dzeko tried to find Silva in the box, a defender blocked his cross which then changed the direction of the ball resulting in Nasri scoring. Nasri was not the intended recipient and the change in direction of the ball was significant. Again, not a Dzeko assist according to the rules but they still gave the assist to Dzeko. It's an absolute joke.

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Stemania
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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by Stemania »

gooberman wrote: It's 100% clear that Lennon was not the intended recipient. He wasn't even in the penalty area when Coleman crossed it into the box. He was aiming for Kone, the defender got to the ball first and blocked it sending the ball in a completely different direction towards Lennon who then scored.

There was a very similar example in the Man City Newcastle game. Dzeko tried to find Silva in the box, a defender blocked his cross which then changed the direction of the ball resulting in Nasri scoring. Nasri was not the intended recipient and the change in direction of the ball was significant. Again, not a Dzeko assist according to the rules but they still gave the assist to Dzeko. It's an absolute joke.
In that case I agree. But with the Sturridge one last week you can at least see why they might have interpreted their rules as an assist.

To be honest, I think they're probably so sick of emails and having to deal with calls like this that they've just decided to broadly go with the original decision. It's understandable, and probably enough for the masses, but it is very frustrating for persnickety people like us who spend so much time playing their game. :(

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by gooberman »

Stemania wrote:
gooberman wrote: It's 100% clear that Lennon was not the intended recipient. He wasn't even in the penalty area when Coleman crossed it into the box. He was aiming for Kone, the defender got to the ball first and blocked it sending the ball in a completely different direction towards Lennon who then scored.

There was a very similar example in the Man City Newcastle game. Dzeko tried to find Silva in the box, a defender blocked his cross which then changed the direction of the ball resulting in Nasri scoring. Nasri was not the intended recipient and the change in direction of the ball was significant. Again, not a Dzeko assist according to the rules but they still gave the assist to Dzeko. It's an absolute joke.
In that case I agree. But with the Sturridge one last week you can at least see why they might have interpreted their rules as an assist.

To be honest, I think they're probably so sick of emails and having to deal with calls like this that they've just decided to broadly go with the original decision. It's understandable, and probably enough for the masses, but it is very frustrating for persnickety people like us who spend so much time playing their game. :(
This season has been the worst I can remember in the 8 years I've been playing. So many examples of assists being awarded which do not fit the the definition of their own rules on assists.

Although its a free game, people set up money leagues so it's important that they apply the assist rule correctly. It's really not that difficult. They have come up with a definition which is actually very good as its definitive and clear with very little room for interpretation yet for some reason beyond me they seem incapable of correctly applying it.

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by Finisher1 »

Much ado about one assist.

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by gooberman »

Finisher1 wrote:Much ado about one assist.
It's not just one, it's several.

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by snakzz »

gooberman wrote:
Finisher1 wrote:Much ado about one assist.
It's not just one, it's several.
:D:D

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by Finisher1 »

gooberman wrote:
Finisher1 wrote:Much ado about one assist.
It's not just one, it's several.
Much ado about several assists.


Better?

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by Carlos Kickaball »

It's not the award of the assists, it's the feeling that the rules of the game are not clear, and the idea that points are given out undeservedly.

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by Stemania »

Carlos Kickaball wrote:It's not the award of the assists, it's the feeling that the rules of the game are not clear, and the idea that points are given out undeservedly.
I agree with goobs - the rules are much clearer and definitive than they've been in a long time. Their application of them is possibly not.

I don't know about undeservedly. The rules aren't really about rewarding deserving, they're about providing a reasonably consistant way to award points, undeserving on not. An attacking player who accidentally deflects a ball to a striker and in doing so gains an assist doesn't deserve an assist any more than someone who put in a dangerous cross which is deflected - they probably 'deserve' it less. But it makes more sense to award points the way they do in this situation because otherwise you have be very subjective regarding intention or award assist in very strange circumstances. Nobody 'deserves' the points that fpl awards, it's just a system of quantifying what happens in a game of football.

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by Carlos Kickaball »

Yeah, when I said deservedly, I meant deservedly on the basis of what has actually happened and who we would expect the points to go to, I would have thought the context would have made that clear. When I say the rules are not clear, exactly what I mean is you can read them, and still not know what will happen, nothing to do with how tight the definitions are. That's the issue, it's not just one assist, it's the idea that it will keep happening in the future and you lose trust in the system.

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by Stemania »

Carlos Kickaball wrote:When I say the rules are not clear, exactly what I mean is you can read them, and still not know what will happen, nothing to do with how tight the definitions are. That's the issue, it's not just one assist, it's the idea that it will keep happening in the future and you lose trust in the system.
The only reason we don't know what will happen is because fpl's implementation of them is not consistent. The actual rules are clearer than they've ever been imo, and less open to interpretation than in previous years. Any loss of trust in the system shouldn't be down to the ever improving explicit rules, but just the fact that they are not tightening up their decision making in the same way.

The reason we possibly don't know what to expect is that we're used to them having very specific interpretations of these vague rules, even if the old rules were less clear. When the rules change or are reworded we'd ideally like to just start afresh and interpret decisions purely by these rules. But in practice, fpl didn't really make a clear cut change themselves, and have historically been sluggish in implementing their own rule changes effectively. They haven't been any clearer or consistent with their interpretations even if the rules reflect a change.

It's looking more and more like the vagueness of the statement of the rules was not the problem all along - it was the individual decision makers interpreting the rules, whose inconsistency we previously blamed on this vagueness of the rules themselves.


Edit: By the way - you can tell I've got a day off while my car gets it's MOT done. :lol:

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by Bao »

Finisher1 wrote:
Bao wrote:With the new deal, English clubs have more motivation to focus on the local league rather than the European Leagues. It will help English clubs in the long run due to higher revenue but harm them in the short run in European Leagues.
I disagree, because regarding TV deal share it doesn't matter so much whether you are first or sixth.
Champions League may be not affected because everybody want to win a Cup but Europa League is different. The winning prize in Europa League may not worth it for an EPL club to scarify its resources in the local league.

We see Liv and Tot dropped Europa League to focus on their top 4 competition in PL. Tier 2 Spain clubs are often more eager in the Europa League than English clubs because they have higher motivation to win EL to get money than to fight for 1 or 2 position in La Liga. If your local league have a lot of money to fight for, you need to give them the most priorities and don't need to look elsewhere.

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by JoonaR16 »

Good post Stemania, I agree with you. EPL has some advantages compared to other leagues. The most important thing is that there's always many candidates for title challenge unlike in Bundesliga. Also Cup games offer nice challenges for small clubs and you'll see many surprising results there. New TV deal looks promising for smaller clubs, lots of money in that deal!

Bundesliga would be very interesting league if there wasn't Bayern winning all the games. But challenge for UCL places is still nice though.

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by Stemania »

Finisher1 wrote:
Bao wrote:With the new deal, English clubs have more motivation to focus on the local league rather than the European Leagues. It will help English clubs in the long run due to higher revenue but harm them in the short run in European Leagues.
I disagree, because regarding TV deal share it doesn't matter so much whether you are first or sixth.
Champions league money will still be a big divider though - so 1st to 4th will still be key. The Europa league on the other hand will become even more irrelevant, if I remember rightly you only get about 5-10m max even if you win the thing. :|

Edit: Sorry, I just realised Bao posted a better post with similar sentiments just above. :oops: 8-)

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by Carlos Kickaball »

Worth remembering that the TV money in La Liga isn't really given out for league positions, Real and Barça could come 3rd and 4th, and they would still get a ridiculously large proportion of the money.

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by Stemania »

Yes, it is even more unfair than it even appears. But, on the other hand, that's the reason Real and Barca are so strong and Spain regularly get success in European competition. You could argue that this is one of the reasons why the Spanish national team is so strong too - because of their dominance the two top clubs can afford to spend money on the (as previously mentioned, slightly cheaper) best Spanish players, and invest heavily in youth (but this is probably touching on another topic altogether). I guess it depends what the league's priorities are.

One of the other things this tv money is going to do is make young English players even more ludicrously expensive than they already are.

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by liquidfootball2 »

Near the end of this season if Liverpool or Spurs can no longer realistically get a top four place, it may well be worthwhile going on their hols in a bid to plummet out of the Europa league places.

If no Champions League then no Europe is a big advantage not to be turned down. Liverpool last season and Utd this season no doubt found the extra preparation time, often a whole week, is a major advantage.

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by Carlos Kickaball »

Stemania wrote:One of the other things this tv money is going to do is make young English players even more ludicrously expensive than they already are.
Do you mean?...
Carlos Kickaball wrote:It's worth remembering that the inflow of cash and sharing amongst the team in the Premier League is actually quite a handycap to the top teams, it is much harder for them to poach the top talent proven and settled in their league from lower down the table. Look at Bayern in Germany and they pretty much poach their rivals players.

Comparing to La Liga.

Think of the transfer fees payed for some of these players:

J Allen £15m
Bony £28.5m
Lallana £25m
P Jones £16.5m
Carroll £50m
Fellaini £27.5m
Luke Shaw 30m

Then compare them to some of these:

Rakitić £16m
Jordi Alba £15m
Villa £34m
Griezmann £24m
Filipe Luis £11m
Godin 6.6m
Isco 23m

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by Stemania »

Well, yes. It's only going to get worse.

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by liquidfootball2 »

The FA confirm that are looking at the Skrtel/De Gea incident from yesterday's match

http://t.co/uoqoe00S6A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by liquidfootball2 »

Skrtel charged by FA over De Gea incident. Could face retrospective three-match ban if guilty

http://t.co/IBSzqFiR5X" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by ctibbits »

liquidfootball2 wrote:Skrtel charged by FA over De Gea incident. Could face retrospective three-match ban if guilty

http://t.co/IBSzqFiR5X" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
FA inconsistency continues :roll:

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by HQ Manoeuvre »

The fantasy week goes from terrible to worse.

A rubbish score, 2 Arsenal duds, Forster snapped and Skrtel likely banned.

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by Tall Paul »

ctibbits wrote:
liquidfootball2 wrote:Skrtel charged by FA over De Gea incident. Could face retrospective three-match ban if guilty

http://t.co/IBSzqFiR5X" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
FA inconsistency continues :roll:
How is it inconsistent? Isn't it the same treatment Costa got for his stamp?

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by foxinthebox2001 »

The Skrtel stamp looks inconclusive from this camera angle, De Gea could be pulling his leg away I wonder if the FA had another view.

This is the stamp Costa got away with, on Skrtel. It looks just as bad.

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by liquidfootball2 »

Skrtel's one was adjudicated and looked obviously deliberate from the views given by Sky which would have been available to the three former refs on the panel.

The Costa one set a recent precedent and consistency is important.

He's been charged so it's now a foregone conclusion that he'll be found guilty with the FA's virtual 100% success rate (there really is so little point in any appeal process, it's completely farcical) so he'll almost certainly get three games unless they appeal and risk a longer ban.

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by foxinthebox2001 »

liquidfootball2 wrote:Skrtel's one was adjudicated and looked obviously deliberate from the views given by Sky which would have been available to the three former refs on the panel.

The Costa one set a recent precedent and consistency is important.

He's been charged so it's now a foregone conclusion that he'll be found guilty with the FA's virtual 100% success rate (there really is so little point in any appeal process, it's completely farcical) so he'll almost certainly get three games unless they appeal and risk a longer ban.
That view above is the only one I can find of the De Gea stamp, and it does not show clearly how much of his leg is involved. Would be delighted if someone could direct me to a clip that does.
But the Costa one was dismissed by the FA, maybe because they already had him on another incident and didn't want to give Jose any more reason to claim referees had it in for him.

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by Mo Bot »

3 game ban for De Gea then? There is clear violent conduct as he shoves Skrtel away in that clip.

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Re: The Rounded Keeper - FPL Pubtalk & Matchday Banter 2014

Post by paisleypark »

I think I would want to see it in real time with a full view of both players. If Skretl adjusted his run to step on DeGea then he should get a ban if there was no adjustment then no ban - just unfortunate DeGea's leg was where Skretl's foot was going to land anyway.

IMO Phil Jones should also be banned for being a carthorse as his assault on Lallana was criminal - he hit him full on in the face and injured his groin :)

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